Curse

HigherMinion · Jul 02, 2012, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I am worried that the long anticipated Elementalist update conclusion will be a massive disappointment if a couple of things are not balanced/changed. Mechanics-wise. Just two simple ideas here to really help the elementalist in PvE become less clunky and improve build experience.

Firstly, and most importantly, Attunements suck. You cannot run a build without one. Anet's response was to lower the cast time from 2s to 1s, which was a nice gesture, but it should only have been to keep us happy while they fixed the real problem. The problem of Energy Storage being a terrible attribute line which is *not* at all useful for energy management. Hell, Glowing Gaze+Star Burst is better energy management than anything in ES. I'm excluding Ether Renewal because it's use is limited for regular builds, as it is an elite skill and, typically, elite energy management builds are frowned upon as gimmicky. It has about as many good skills as Soul Reaping, but Soul Reaping counters the lack of actual skills with an amazing (prior to nerf, disastrously overpowered) passive effect that generates energy from deaths.

There is a very easy way to solve these two problems:
problem 1: Elementalist builds consist of 7 optional skills + elemental attunement skill.
problem 2: Energy Storage is not Energy Management.

In the same way that Soul Reaping works, Attunements should only be supplementary energy management instead of mandatory (see Signet of Lost Souls). The solution is to make elemental spells under the Fire, Water, Earth and Air lines return x energy per successful cast based on your Energy Storage rank. I don't know how progression would go, but 2% energy return per rank sounds balanced. It would free up a slot and justify Energy Storage as a primary attribute. Currently, everyone rolls x/E just for GoLE, so that may need to be addressed too.

Secondly, and lastly for now, Intensity was buffed a while back giving hope to all that they will now be able to deal comparable DPS to a warrior! They were wrong!! It was bugged to high Hell (demons on crack) and unworkable with AoE damage or Damage over Time spells. This seriously limited it's use and viability in builds which means AP Elementalists are still on top.

There is an obvious fix for this: you either give it a duration or allow it to burst damage per SPELL USED, so it would trigger on every pulse of Savannah Heat, Lava Font, Churning Earth, etc. It would see much more use this way and there won't be a definitive "top dog" build.

The damage Intensity produces needs to calculate all of the AoE damage you deal with a single skill. If you hit three foes with Star Burst, that's (91*3), 50% of THAT should be Intensity's damage, because that is the damage from the next elemental skill you used. All in all, this skill should have been an elemental contender against Splinter Weapon.

Discuss.

NOTICE: This is not a PvP suggestion. If it were taken on board, it must be split or balanced in some way. Elementalists in PvP need to be shut down by either interruption or attunement removal. However, sign separately if you think it's worth thinking about for PvP. I personally think not.

Skyy High · Jul 02, 2012, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Energy Storage is not energy management by design. You have your attunements and your secondary energy gain skills (GG, etc) for that. Energy Storage is just there to boost your energy pool so you can use spells that have absolutely ridiculous energy costs at the start of a battle without making yourself completely useless for the next 10 seconds (like every other class in the game), and to work well with the skills that care about how much energy you have.

Monks, rits, and mesmers don't have energy management for a primary attribute either. They manage with skills. Necros are special because they're the only caster class that specifically doesn't have to worry about bringing energy management skills because their e-management is built-in.

It bugs me aesthetically that every ele build has to have an attunement or an elite energy management skill because nothing else is good enough to keep your spells going...but I don't think your suggestion is warranted. Stopping for 1sec every minute to recast an attunement is a pittance of an effort compared to most classes when it comes to energy management, and considering how ridiculously powerful soul reaping is, I don't think it's a good idea at this stage in the game to introduce another permanent energy management primary attribute line.

HigherMinion · Jul 02, 2012, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

(like every other class in the game), and to work well with the skills that care about how much energy you have.

Monks, rits, and mesmers don't have energy management for a primary attribute either. They manage with skills. Necros are special because they're the only caster class that specifically doesn't have to worry about bringing energy management skills because their e-management is built-in.

It bugs me aesthetically that every ele build has to have an attunement or an elite energy management skill because nothing else is good enough to keep your spells going...but I don't think your suggestion is warranted. Stopping for 1sec every minute to recast an attunement is a pittance of an effort compared to most classes when it comes to energy management, and considering how ridiculously powerful soul reaping is, I don't think it's a good idea at this stage in the game to introduce another permanent energy management primary attribute line.

1. Who has passive energy management?

Answer: Leadership is passive and attribute based, same goes for Mysticism, Expertise, Critical Strikes AND Soul Reaping. Monks gain a different kind of reward, where they heal more per skill, which is technically free energy when you cast one spell to heal someone rather than two. It's a compressed heal in the same way assassins have 1/4 attacks. Mesmers get their faster recharge which allows them to spam their energy management (drain delusions or Power Drain) In fact, Mesmers have a whole attribute line dedicated to energy stealing/gain; Inspiration. They aren't passive, and they aren't even necessary, but they have secondary effects which can turn a game around. Interrupts and enchant removal or energy drain (less so in PvE). In the same vain, Ritualist energy management have secondary effects like direct damage or DoT, with many different skills to gain energy spread across all attributes. Elementalists do not have such a luxury.

2. Guild Wars supposedly gets balanced based on overused skills and stale meta. Welll, Attunement skills are just about the most used skills in the entire game, ever. Because they never changed. The entire theory of Energy Storage is so bad, that more non-elementalist professions take Glyph of Lesser Energy than they do themselves. Should that be the case? There is something wrong with attunements on a fundamental level if there is 0 alternative (or you're gimping your build).

Skyy High · Jul 02, 2012, 06:35 PM // 18:35

First, I was very specific when I said that necros were the only caster class in the game with a primary attribute that provides passive energy management. Note how none of the other classes you mentioned are casters. Your entire premise is that energy storage doesn't function as energy management, and it should. That premise doesn't hold up to scrutiny when you compare the ele to other light armored caster classes.

Second, the fact that mesmers and rits have energy management skills that technically do things is irrelevant; they still have to spend skill slots to bring those skills (which aren't as good as other, non-energy-management skills at doing those other jobs, because that's not their primary purpose), and the mesmer in particular has to spend attribute points to bring Inspiration energy management. They're certainly not getting much out of those skills, and they have to stop to use them (or use them carefully, in the case of Power Drain and the like) more often than the ele.

Point is, every single caster class except for the necro has to sacrifice something in order to manage their energy. Mesmers sacrifice skill slots and attribute points. Rits sacrifice skill slots (because, seriously, their e-management skills are either useless for damage or do nothing but give energy). Both sacrifice the time spent using those skills. Monks either sacrifice their secondary profession AND skill slots, or they lose the ability to spam their skills at will. One skill slot that makes you stop for 1sec every 60 is not a big sacrifice at all, in comparison.

Third, GoLE being a useful secondary profession skill has nothing to do with how good or bad attunements are. And it IS a useful skill for an ele, because it turns any big skill from cheap (with attunement) to energy gain. You probably could use it as an alternative, if you wanted to. GoLE + GG in a non-SF fire build would probably work just fine without an attunement. Attunements are just so powerful and easy to use that there's zero incentive to explore alternatives. Basically, the only way to increase an ele's options would be to nerf attunements, because a buff to their energy management is just completely unnecessary at this point.

HigherMinion · Jul 02, 2012, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

First, I was very specific when I said that necros were the only caster class in the game with a primary attribute that provides passive energy management. Note how none of the other classes you mentioned are casters. Your entire premise is that energy storage doesn't function as energy management, and it should. That premise doesn't hold up to scrutiny when you compare the ele to other light armored caster classes.

Second, the fact that mesmers and rits have energy management skills that technically do things is irrelevant; they still have to spend skill slots to bring those skills (which aren't as good as other, non-energy-management skills at doing those other jobs, because that's not their primary purpose), and the mesmer in particular has to spend attribute points to bring Inspiration energy management. They're certainly not getting much out of those skills, and they have to stop to use them (or use them carefully, in the case of Power Drain and the like) more often than the ele.

Point is, every single caster class except for the necro has to sacrifice something in order to manage their energy. Mesmers sacrifice skill slots and attribute points. Rits sacrifice skill slots (because, seriously, their e-management skills are either useless for damage or do nothing but give energy). Both sacrifice the time spent using those skills. Monks either sacrifice their secondary profession AND skill slots, or they lose the ability to spam their skills at will. One skill slot that makes you stop for 1sec every 60 is not a big sacrifice at all, in comparison.

As soon as you count necromancers your argument falls apart. It has to be one profession only with good energy management? For PvP at least, Ritualists have great energy management skills which play as hex cover, damage over time and burst damage on a very short recharge. That's not useless, and Spirit Siphon is OP already in PvE for a channelling rit. However, most rit builds can ride the blue line quite easily.

Mesmers sacrifice points, so do Necromancers and so would/does the elementalist... I don't see your point here. I'm saying it would scale with Energy Storage. It is currently an attribute that benefits only two skills: The Glowing series in each element and Mind elites which requires energy higher than the foe. Apart from that, it is a dead attribute.

Skyy High · Jul 03, 2012, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

As soon as you count necromancers your argument falls apart.

Eh...what? You were the one who claimed that a primary attribute had to include energy management. I showed how that's only the case for one caster profession. Your premise is invalidated by the fact that the necro is the exception, not the rule.

Quote:

It has to be one profession only with good energy management? For PvP at least, Ritualists have great energy management skills which play as hex cover, damage over time and burst damage on a very short recharge. That's not useless, and Spirit Siphon is OP already in PvE for a channelling rit. However, most rit builds can ride the blue line quite easily.

They're still sacrificing skill slots. Yeah, those skills do (pathetic) damage, but on the other hand you have to break up your rotation every ~10 seconds to use the skill(s), and really you have to use at least 2 of them in order to match the energy gain of a single passive attunement. Attunements are fire-and-forget, and they work just as well, or better.

Quote:

Mesmers sacrifice points, so do Necromancers and so would/does the elementalist... I don't see your point here.

Mesmers have to put points in a line that they would probably not use if not for the fact that it has good energy management. That means that they have to use 3 attributes in pretty much every build. Eles don't; their energy management (attunements) are in the same attributes they're specing in for damage (or whatever). That's a huge difference.

My point is very simple: at absolute worst, eles have energy management challenges on par with other caster classes (with the exception of the necro, who basically laughs at everyone else). When you add up all their advantages, I'd say they actually have better, more reliable, less onerous energy management than every other caster class (again, except for the necros). Yeah, other classes' energy management actually tends to "do stuff"...but that's because on every other metric, their options are inferior.

Last post on the subject, if you don't understand my point by now there's little else I can do.

Rexx · Jul 03, 2012, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Agreed with most things you said. However...i want Ele Update Part 2 to be much more significant. Buff Energy Storage/Water Magic/Air Magic. Invoke & Chain Lightning should be reverted to previous version in PvE. The Attunements should give extra points (+1/+2) in the chosen Atribute.

One question: Why does it take 6+ months for Anet to do a Part 2 Update for Elementalists?

Relyk · Jul 03, 2012, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Anet designed the primary attribute for fundamental differences in professions, energy management is one of those. Necros have soul reaping and many soul reaping skills that let's them use their high cost spells. Rangers are designed so expertise balances out skills costs and innate regeneration. Paragons have leadership and then are provided adrenaline and energy based shouts/attacks to manage energy with. Dervish have mysticism, which bases energy management around enchantments. They later changed this to function like ranger energy management. Warriors use the separate function of adrenaline instead of energy management. Mesmers are the exception, where they dedicated an attribute line to energy. Spawning Power has most of the Ritualist's energy management skills. It also makes using weapon spells less cost-prohibitive. The whole point of divine favor is to make it impossible for other professions to heal as efficiently for the energy cost. this pattern is pretty pervasive for the professions.

Attunements are designed to force elementalists into one attribute to prevent abuse of multiple elements. Energy storage is designed around having energy reserves so the high cost elementalist skills can be used with the attunements and skills in energy storage to maintain those energy reserves. So I disagree that energy storage doesn't serve as energy management. Players just abuse this function by maintaining energy reserves with AP and gole instead of relying on an attunement. Attunements are vital to elementalist builds however, and when enemies have an excess of enchantment removal, the effectiveness of your build is gimped. Relying on energy reserves in PvE simply doesn't work anymore. Elementalists don't get rewarded enough with active engagement, instead relying on passive energy management, where their actual energy management comes for active usage of spells provided for the elemental attribute.

The changes I'd want to see is turning attunement spells into skills so they can't be removed and provide more active energy management skills such as Starburst that scale with energy storage like the current skills do. Changing some superfluous skills like Elemental Flame or Swirling Aura, reducing costs on some spells, and scaling attunements would go a long way to reduce reliance on AP for more active play with elementalist.

Cuilan · Jul 03, 2012, 02:54 AM // 02:54

HigherMinion uses Infuse and Protective Bond, but then says ES isn't energy management.

HigherMinion · Jul 03, 2012, 03:54 AM // 03:54

@Relyk; strangely, as a "skill" all you end up getting is an uninterruptible, stance-like energy management, which seems much more like Expertise (or perhaps Air of Superiority) and also overpowered. With your concern to abusing secondary elements; firstly, Anet are trying to promote cross-element builds (Master of Magic, Elemental Attunement, etc.) but lack of skill bar is apparent after slotting Aura of Restoration, MoM/EA, Fire and/or the other attunement of the element you were going to synergise with... It's a mess. Saying that, I agree with your last paragraph as a solution.

Necromancers aren't OP. They were OP when they weren't limited to gaining energy after EVERY KILL. Now you are penalised whenever you kill a giant mob in one go, because after you've topped out, you're still not seeing that "overkill" energy gain.

The way elementalists can be balanced in energy-gain through passive Energy Storage is a 2% increment of energy gain when casting ELEMENTAL Spells SUCCESSFULLY. This is similar to the dervish scheme of Flash Enchantments apart from the difference of needing the required energy before receiving the reduction (Expertise works like that too). Spells can be interrupted and you lose out, as it often is in most meaningful areas of PvE.

@Cuilan; Using elite energy management like Ether Renewal really gimps your bar as a 7H player or any kind of player; most elementalists want to deal damage, which is what the update addresses. Hard Mode update and elementalist part 1 weren't released at the same time by coincidence. Your irrelevant one-liners are uncanny and deep, however, and I welcome them in this thread with open arms.

@Everyone; don't forget to discuss Intensity. It is just as important.

akelarumi · Jul 03, 2012, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Please please Anet, don't listen to the OP, I beg you. The only real fun and challenge in playing Ele is energymanagement. So in update two please make sure damage output is good enough AND superior to any other class. The reason is that Ele should be the nuker (as was promised on the start). A nuker class comes with great power. That power comes with responsibility. That is energymanagement.

There is nothing wrong with attunement and manual control of your energypool. It is needed to control the awesome power (or actually the awesome power the ele should have).

Energymanagement is a way to be better then others in this game. If you take that away all thats left is a class with one op bar and all other bars would be considered as a oddball. We already have such a class and it's called paragon. If players don't like to keep an eye on their energybar and know not to just manicly press skills, they should consider playing another class. Necro is very good for that playstyle and very powerfull.

HigherMinion · Jul 03, 2012, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

Please please Anet, don't listen to the OP, I beg you. The only real fun and challenge in playing Ele is energymanagement. So in update two please make sure damage output is good enough AND superior to any other class. The reason is that Ele should be the nuker (as was promised on the start). A nuker class comes with great power. That power comes with responsibility. That is energymanagement.

There is nothing wrong with attunement and manual control of your energypool. It is needed to control the awesome power (or actually the awesome power the ele should have).

Energymanagement is a way to be better then others in this game. If you take that away all thats left is a class with one op bar and all other bars would be considered as a oddball. We already have such a class and it's called paragon. If players don't like to keep an eye on their energybar and know not to just manicly press skills, they should consider playing another class. Necro is very good for that playstyle and very powerfull.

Did you read everything I said? You're immediately jumping to the conclusion that this will solve all energy issues and you can spam all day long and it won't be balanced and you won't have to take more energy management. This is not the case. it serves to reward eles speccing into a currently useless attribute, return a bit of energy inherently like many professions, help anchor the profession to all elements, not just specifics.

Yes, you gain energy from fire attunement casting fire spells, but you should be speccing the elemental attribute for damage while ES is for energy. It adds depth to the attribute progression.

Your first sentence makes no sense to me.

Andemius · Jul 03, 2012, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

Please please Anet, don't listen to the OP, I beg you. The only real fun and challenge in playing Ele is energymanagement.

Wait what?

Managing your energy is imo by far the most boring part of playing ele unless you take it to the extreme of the ER Eles, which I can appreciate as being a clever concept.

I do not like having to take an attunement on my bar wherever I go simply because thats the only way to handle the drain.

Back onto intensity, I'd say it's pretty useless. I wouldn't consider carrying it in it's current incarnation. It seemed better when it added percentile damage. Perhaps a re-work into energy storage would prevent misuse (like with the para sunspear skill's like to leadership and the assassin link to crit)

Reformed · Jul 03, 2012, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

The only real fun and challenge in playing Ele is energymanagement.

Not much challenge involved in screaming at your necro to go hard emo and cry from his wrists periodically.

Would love to see Intensity changed to work on pulsed aoe instead of just one packet from anything. Even if that meant increasing the cost or the recharge it would still make it more worthy of a slot.

akelarumi · Jul 03, 2012, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Your first sentence makes no sense to me.

Yip I expected that. It is really hard to understand one might not agree with you. Discussion is a good thing and a great good. but starting a topic and reacting to almost everything others are saying means your not understanding that in a discussion one can disagree. Thats why I didn't say that first sentence to you. My advice to you is to take the reactions to your proposal serious without trying to prove others are wrong. I say I find the way energymanagement is working on ele's very enjoying and that I'm afraid that what your proposing would ruin that joy, and therefore, for me, the entire class.

@andemius: Yip ER-eles are very nice and fun to play (where and when they are usefull). for the rest, well it is a matter of taste. I'm afraid however that making EM optional would mean that ele's would become a single build class with a few gimmick builds like e.g. the paragon. I do hope however they find a way to combine elements adn would have no problem if an attunement does more then give back energy (maybe make it a focus instead of an attunement).

Bit of thinking out loud now, but what bout changing e.g. fireattunement to firefocus (might need another name) where it function as before and make foes more vulnarable to firedamage dealt by fireskills. Maybe make the second funtion a ward, so other party members have the same benefit from it and making timing and position more important. (off course fire is an example, same would go for water, earth and air-attunement).

Coast · Jul 03, 2012, 05:40 PM // 17:40

just make the attunements a skill in PVE and maybe give the skills in that attribute +% dmg with the attunement:
like fire attunement, bla bla same as before description, but skill and all fire spells do +20%dmg for every 4ranks of fire attunement.
so at 12e storage u would get +60%dmg with fire spells.

they could even make it give some extra benefit:
-fire attunement +20% dmg per 4ranks of e storage, 1sec burn per 4ranks
-water attunement +20% dmg per 4ranks of e storage, 1snare per 4ranks
-earth attunement +20% dmg per 4ranks of e storage, 2sec weaknes per 4ranks
-air attunement +20% dmg per 4ranks of e storage, 2sec cracked per 4ranks

prism2525 · Jul 03, 2012, 09:11 PM // 21:11

How about this: Turn E-storage into a channeling-type effect:

Every time you cast a spell, you gain 1...2...2 energy for each creature in the area.

or....

You gain 1...2...2 energy for each successful skill used in your area. (no more than 4 times every 10 seconds)

yitjuan · Jul 04, 2012, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Lower/Remove the extra energy gained from ranking up Energy Storage.

Add +1 pip of energy regeneration per 3/8/13 ranks of E Storage, perhaps as a proc that lasts for X rank seconds of Attribute when you cast a (attribute-linked) spell. It does cap out at +10 E.regen, and is affected by Exhaustion, so you can't topload on 3-4 high cost spells immediately, but you have longer lasting power if you continually cast stuff.

The Attunements would be left there for /E users.

instanceskiller · Jul 04, 2012, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by yitjuan

Lower/Remove the extra energy gained from ranking up Energy Storage.

Add +1 pip of energy regeneration per 3/8/13 ranks of E Storage, perhaps as a proc that lasts for X rank seconds of Attribute when you cast a (attribute-linked) spell. It does cap out at +10 E.regen, and is affected by Exhaustion, so you can't topload on 3-4 high cost spells immediately, but you have longer lasting power if you continually cast stuff.

The Attunements would be left there for /E users.

I approve of this kind of idea. Maybe a bit more fine tuning needed but making e-storage give energy regen is (I think) a very good idea. Regarding intensity...I think it needs another functionality change as its current one feels rather "clunky"? Then again, a lot of ele builds feel that way at the moment. Maybe if they made intensity affect more spells then there might be something there.

Relyk · Jul 04, 2012, 04:20 PM // 16:20

giving elementalists infinite energy doesn't really solve anything, it just breaks the game.